Liz wrote on my blog: “You are correct. I believe that even Gandhi cannot get into heaven because he SINNED. That’s all there is to it. No sin in heaven. If you have ever sinned, you cannot get into heaven.”

This brought back a painful, but enlightening discussion I had with a former colleague. The discussion goes kind of like this:

I asked “I’m a good guy, but I’m not a Christian, I think I’ll get into heaven.” (At the time I was a semi-practicing Muslim)

My colleague replied “No. You have to believe in Jesus to get into heaven.”

To which I replied, “But I do believe in Jesus. Muslims just don’t think he’s a god.”

“Then you can’t go to heaven.” He said, shrugging his shoulders like he was saying “too bad”.

I began to think. I asked “But what if I’m super-nice! I do a ton of good: I start charities, save lives, etc. What if I’m a heart surgeon, and all I do, day-in day-out, is save lives! Certainly I would deserve heaven.”

“Nope. You have to believe that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior. You can’t simply do good and get into heaven.”

To which I replied “So you’re telling me that 80% of the world’s population that doesn’t believe in Jesus is going to hell?”

“Yup.”

At this point I’m fired up. I couldn’t believe that people like this existed. Here’s a person who clearly is a church-going, god fearing individual who believes that today, at least 4+ billion people are worthy of eternal hell. Women and children too.

I continue, “What! You’re telling me that even children that aren’t old enough to even know about Jesus are going to hell?”

“Yes. Because they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior.”

“But they’re not old enough to know! Ok, so how about this: When Jesus was alive, there were clearly millions of Native Americans all up and down both continents. They couldn’t possibly know about Jesus; the Americas weren’t even discovered. Surely, these guys are excluded from this “savior” requirement?”

“Nope. Not even the Native Americans.”

I said “That’s a hell of a lot of people. In fact, hundreds of millions of people spanning hundreds of generations before Jesus are all going to hell? They didn’t deny Jesus – they didn’t even know he existed!”

“Look it’s simple. You have to accept Jesus before you can get into heaven. That’s it.”

“So you’re telling me that every man, woman and child that ever existed before Jesus is all going to hell? What about Abraham and Moses? They lived before Jesus.”

“That’s different.” He said as if ending the conversation. He continued to eat throughout this discussion.

I sat dumbfounded unable to finish my lunch.

Here’s Liz’s comment in its entirety:

You are correct. I believe that even Gandhi cannot get into heaven because he SINNED. That’s all there is to it. No sin in heaven. If you have ever sinned, you cannot get into heaven.

Unless…you have a mediator. Jesus takes on our sins. We no longer have to carry the weight of our sins and we become perfect in Jesus Christ. That is how we get into heaven because it is as our sins never happened. They are completely washed away.

All we have to do is believe this as I said. But…if we come into a relationship with Jesus, we realize we would not have eternal life without Him. This is what makes us turn our lives around and choose to follow Him. He saved us from death, so the least we can do is serve Him. So yes, if you murder someone and then you come to know Jesus, you will be forgiven in the sense that the sin goes away.

Just a side note: All sins are equal to God. So murder is the same as lying or lusting in God’s eyes.

Lastly, I never said God is ok with any kind of sin. He hates sin. That’s why He cannot allow anyone with sin into heaven, no matter how “good” anyone thiks they are.

So yes, God can forgive anyone of even the worst possible sin. But no, He cannot allow anyone with the least of sins into heaven.

I’ll comment on this later…but for now:

http://atheistwager.blogspot.com/2007/04/first-post.html

Even the Pope believes in evolution; it’s just that he believes “his” God created it! God of the Gaps – while simultaneously denying this philosophy, pretty much admits that God is used to explain stuff that science has yet to explain. I love Richard Dawkins. And it seems that the Pope has read his book.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL1015081120070411

Why would God come to earth under such poor circumstances and be able to perform only simple “miracles”, but couldn’t perform anything significant, like prevent his own death? Over 2000 years ago, mass communication was impossible. Jesus could only communicate to people that were near him. There was no email, television, radio, etc. If he had such an important message to deliver, wouldn’t it be better that he prevented Judas from selling him out? He could’ve lived for decades, preaching and building a Christian state, similar to what Muhammad did.

Plus, I don’t understand the notion that God would sacrifice his own kid…and in such a painful manner. But let’s think about that “painful” part. How long did he suffer? Was it hours, perhaps days? If the crucifixion of Jesus was an actual event, does it accurately represent Jesus taking the heat for the rest of us? I mean, he suffered for a while, but not nearly as long as some children with terminal cancer suffer; some of them suffer for years. In and out of hospitals; massive doses of horrible chemotherapy that pretty much make their lives a living hell.

I know many people with terminal cancer or genetic disorders (CF to be exact). They seem to be in quite a bit of pain for a very long period of time. Their friends and family suffer along with them for years. I’m thinking (perhaps blasphemously) that Jesus’ ordeal wasn’t that great, when compared with someone with inoperable cancer. So what, if the Romans put a crown of thorns on his head. So what if he got whipped and stabbed with swords. It only lasted for a short period of time. If God really wanted his “son” to suffer for the sins of humanity, he would have given him a combination of incurable diseases that slowly and painfully kill them. Now that’s a sacrifice.

The other day, my wife felt sad that she could no longer thank God for “good things”. Something nice had happened and she wanted to thank God. She accused me of depriving her of that. Like me, after much studying, she too had become an atheist last year. I couldn’t help but feel bad.

For a moment.

Then I asked her: “What if something bad had happened? Would you be just as ready to blame God?”

She shook her head “No”.

I you were God (or a god), who actually loved his (or her) creation, wouldn’t you want to protect them? I hear the phrase, “we’re all God’s children”. I have children and I don’t think I would ever want any harm to come to them, regardless of what life-lesson they might learn. I’ve heard people of many faiths claim that a given disease is punishment from God (like AIDS, cancer, herpes, etc.). As with many diseases, there’s collateral damage: children, elderly, people that didn’t deserve it, sometimes get it.

Why wouldn’t you put in some safety net? That would protect the innocent. If AIDS was sent by God to punish homosexuals, why do women get it? Why do children get it? Collateral damage. That’s not what the religious call it. They often call it a sad reality, but a necessary punishment. It’s the same mentality many people have about the death penalty, where innocent people occasionally get killed by the state. As long as it’s not one of their loved ones, who cares if an occasional innocent person is killed.

I had a friend of mine actually say this to me: “God sometimes punishes the perpetrators by ‘hurting’ a loved one.”

That’s right, he actually believed that a child gets cancer because of the sins of one or both of their parents. To which I replied – “You’re fucked up. You need counseling.”

One of the things that still baffles me: If there’s a God, why not put into any of the holy books any information regarding bacterial & viral infection, the black plague, the flu virus, HIV, HPV, or countless other preventable diseases.

What about something really simple, like the idea of soap. If I were God and I were to send a messenger (around the time of the prophets), the first thing I would tell him to relay is the importance of soap. I would also include in my book, the proper recipe for a good anti-bacterial soap. One that also leaves your hands soft.

Oh, and I may also put somewhere in my book that the plague will be caused by infected rats. Why kill roughly 75 million people just to teach them a lesson?

I’ve noticed that there are two, maybe three kinds of people that leave their religion. There’s the one that leaves their religion because they are dissatisfied by what that religion offers and are seeking another religion. These people convert from one god to another god (or belief system) that provides them with the spiritual bounty they’re looking for.

The other type is the one that tries to figure out why their own religion isn’t working. This type is me. It is this type of religious analysis that often produce agnostics or atheists. It’s quite difficult for this type of person to become religious again. Because the same deficiencies they found in their own religion are very easy to find in other religions. Richard Dawkins (my savior) says it best: We all know what it’s like to be atheists. Every religious person is an atheist regarding all other religions. It’s easy for a Christian to see the faults with Islam, Hinduism, etc. That’s because when you’re not brought up from day one believing in such a way, it’s hard to believe this supernatural stuff!

For example: If you were brought up believing that God spoke to Moses in the form of a burning bush on top of a mountain, then why is it difficult to believe that Muhammad would have a similar experience hundreds of years later? Easy. Because both stories are strange; it’s just that you’re used to hearing one of them.

One of the biggest reasons for my distrust of and departure from all religions is this: God only likes to talk to 1 person at a time. This makes it really difficult to have witnesses that will write down their experience. Just like people never believe others that claim to have witnessed a UFO. Why not? If Moses came down from the mountain and told me God just spoke with him, I’d look at him the same way I would look at somebody that said they just saw a UFO. Why can’t God talk to more than one person at a time? Is it technological? Or is it some kind of test? God fearing people always claim that this is some sort of test of their faith in God’s messengers and His words. I call it a bullshit excuse.

I think there might be a third type: One that believes in a god/creator but cannot stand organized religion. I know many people that firmly believe that I still believe in God, but just not religion. Now I have to go into a discussion about all of the reasons God cannot exist. It’s quite frustrating. This type of person can be persuaded to believe in religion again; usually the religion of their parents or one of their closest friends.

But let me set the record straight: I don’t believe in God. Not because I’m unhappy with the spirituality I had with Islam, but because now everything makes sense. When I believed in God, things didn’t make sense. So I studied. And I studied. And apparently that’s the worst thing you can do, because the inevitable outcome of this type of studying is atheism (or at least agnosticism).

Hitting your wife: Sura 4:34 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.034)

Inheritance: Sura 4:176 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.176)

Killing nonbelievers: 2:191 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191)

Yup. It’s there.

Both agreeing to the sadness of losing our friend, we sit sipping beer, looking at the ground. “How could anybody be convinced by these backward mullas?” We traded theories back and forth. Here was one of my theories:

It’s like a 12 step program. First step, acknowledge that I (the brainwasher), know more than you about Islam. Next step, convince you of good things that Islam brings to your life. “Don’t you love the brotherhood at Friday prayer?” “Islam gave women the right to initiate divorce.”

Once you cave into the first few appetizers, it’s easy to fall for the rest.

My friend (sipping beer) disagreed. He figured that he was impervious to this type of trick. He figured that as soon as they started spouting hatred, he’d be onto them. Well, perhaps. However, if it’s a gradual process and you’re outnumbered, you may cave in. Also, if you’re my friend from the US in Pakistan, you may be willing to try anything to “fit in” and be accepted. Maybe he figured that he’ll just pretend to believe all that nonsense, just to fit in. But then slowly, he began to believe that stuff.

The evening, however, took a strange turn. I said this: It’s because of these fanatics, that I stopped going to the mosque altogether. He looked at me strangely and then confessed that he too had left a mosque because of these guys – only to land at another mosque where the imam was more progressive. “More progressive?” Yeah. That’s right. This imam teaches you good things.

“What good things?” I asked.

“This Friday, the imam taught about the virtues of forgiveness.”

“You needed an imam to teach you that? How come you didn’t know that before?”

“Well I guess I knew it, he just drove it home.”

“What? That’s insane. You always knew that you should forgive people. You never needed an imam to teach you that.”

“Whatever. It made me feel good.”

I said “That’s how they string you along. First they teach you good stuff you already knew and then slowly they start injecting the rest of their crap”

“No way dude, I would see right through it. Plus, he’s like a coach. You can’t have a football team without a coach. He just makes us better humans”

“Bullshit! Life isn’t a game. And life isn’t a test! You don’t need somebody to tell you the obvious. Plus, what makes him better than you regarding your life.”

“He’s studied the Quran and plus, this is his life.”

“Bullshit! Has he told you all the crazy stuff in the Quran? No. I bet he told you all the fluffy good stuff. They hide the crazy stuff.”

“No…there’s nothing bad in the Quran. People twist the passages around.”

Ok. I felt myself being dragged in. I couldn’t help it. I enjoyed it. Is that bad?

“Did you know that Muslim women only get a fraction of the inheritance that a man gets?”

“No…that’s not in the Quran; it’s in the Hadith.” he said shaking his head left and right.

“It’s in there. Look it up. Did you know that you’re supposed to kill nonbelievers?”

“Come on. That’s not in there either. The mullas make that shit up.” Still in disbelief.

“Did you know that it’s OK to hit your wife, if you fear she’s disobedient?”

“Bullshit!”

“It’s in there. Oh, more modern translations are more diplomatic. But a lot of translations explicitly say ‘hit’.”

“Well, hitting your wife is only the last resort. Right before divorce.”

I couldn’t fucking believe it!

“Are you fucking insane?” I said, leaning forward.

“Well I don’t mean that you should really hit her…hard.” He leaned back a bit. Probably not expecting my response.

“Well, what do you mean? How hard should you hit her?” I said, with a smile.

“Like this…” He showed me how softly he would hit his wife. Wife, by the way, was sitting in the other room with my wife. Too far to hear this back and forth.

“Dude, how can any wife take you seriously if you simply tap her on the shoulder? This is your last resort? You’re going to tap her on the shoulder? I think if you’re at your wit’s end, you should hit her hard enough to straighten her up.” I had a huge smile.

“Come on dude. Now you’re just being silly.”

References:

Hitting your wife: Sura 4:34 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.034)

Inheritance: Sura 4:176 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.176)

Killing nonbelievers: 2:191 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191)

Yup. It’s in there.

A friend came over for dinner the other night and reluctantly I got caught up in a religious debate. I see this friend about once every couple of months, so we’re not the closest of friends; however we have known each other for about 20 years.

He’s a Muslim, but a liberal one. He drinks alcohol on occasion and has a progressive outlook. Both of us have a mutual friend who went off to Pakistan shortly after high school here in the US. His dad was hell bent on him becoming a doctor and figured if he paid enough dollars, a Pakistani med school would grant him admission and boom, a doctor! Now the problem here is that this mutual friend was born and raised in the US. Although he had visited Pakistan a few times on family trips, he was 100% American. He loved skateboarding, Depeche Mode, New Order, had long hair, loved computer games, just like me.

While we were sad to see him go, we were happy that he was becoming a doctor; the Holy Grail for any Pakistani parent. A few years passed and when he returned, he looked like a Taliban Mulla. He had a beard and was dressed like a sheep herder. We were shocked! Our skateboarding, Depeche Mode loving friend had been converted from being a progressive, American Muslim to a freaking extremist Taliban style Wahabi.

We were shocked and heartbroken. He was no longer our friend that we grew up with. His view on life had taken a tragic turn. No longer did he like being in the same room with women; he felt that women and men shouldn’t intermingle – it was un-Islamic. When he would visit from Pakistan and we’d see him at family gatherings, he would raise a fuss regarding women and men in the same room. It became uncomfortable to be around him. He had become so extreme.

After spending about 7 years in Pakistan, he finally returned to the US to live. He had been back for over a decade when I finally ran into him again. It was a planned visit. I figured 10+ years of being back in the US, he would have returned back to his old self; but I was in for a shock. When I saw him, he was dressed like an old man from Afghanistan. He was wearing traditional garb with a turban. He looked like somebody you’d see on CNN these days, except he’s here in the US.

I confronted him: I said “Do you have a deathwish?” He lives in the mid-west, not exactly New York City, where wearing freaky gear goes unnoticed. You can’t dress like the Taliban in rural US. He just smiled and shrugged it off – as if I where joking. I didn’t engage him in any controversial dialog; I hadn’t seen him in years. I just wanted to have a pleasant 2-3 hours with an old friend.

We had dinner and parted ways. I was sooo sad.

So the other night, my friend and I got into a religious debate because we started talking about the fine line between being devout and being a fanatic. It was an entertaining discussion – for another post.